Lara Schmoisman (00:11)

Hi guys, welcome back to coffee number five. And today I have a double treat for you. You get my sexy accent, but you get someone else sexy accent as well. yeah, I mean, we had to deal with accents. We had to deal to come into a new country to bring a different culture, but somehow we were able to do it. We were able, and if we were able to do it, I don’t see why others can’t. It’s a lot of great, but.

 

There is a lot of work involved, but it’s doable. So I want to welcome today a dear friend, but also an incredible leader, Marina Kirchner. Marina is also from Argentina and she has an incredible career here in the United States in the beauty industry. Today she is, we wouldn’t let her introduce herself. Welcome Marina.

 

Marina Kirschner (01:01)

Thank you. am so happy to be here with you and what a nice introduction.

 

Lara Schmoisman (01:06)

Well, tell us a little more about your career. How old you were when you came to the US and how did you get to where you are today?

 

Marina Kirschner (01:14)

Sure, yeah. So I’m currently the global head of marketing for Moroccan Oil. I’ve been here for about seven years, but I’ve been in the US for about 20 years. And I moved to the US following a boyfriend, now my husband. And I came here without knowing people. had a career in Argentina. I studied finance and economics. I was in consumer products. And when I came to the US, I had to really reinvent myself.

 

And I think that over the years, I realized that the US is really the land of opportunities. And if you work hard and you really are determined and have self-confidence, you can really make it in the United States. So yeah, I’ve been in the beauty industry for the last 18 years. I’ve been in bigger, larger corporations, and I’m now being in Moroccano, like I said, for seven years.

 

Lara Schmoisman (02:07)

It’s very interesting and I believe you just said the most important keyword there is to work hard. I think that this goes for any culture, even if you are born and raised here. But I have a question for you. Do you feel like it was harder for you because you came from a different culture?

 

Marina Kirschner (02:28)

I think so. think that when you’re making me really think about it and the reality is that it’s hard to be an immigrant. It’s hard to be a woman immigrant. It’s hard to come from a different culture, to come from just speaking a different language. And I went to really good school, they prepare in Argentina. When I came here, I felt like, as I said, like I had to start from scratch. it was not easy, but I think that

 

It really goes back to the resiliency and to knowing that you can do it and trusting yourself by the to be honest, it was it was not easy. It was not easy.

 

Lara Schmoisman (03:05)

Believe

 

me, it wasn’t easy for me either. And you had the advantage of the spoke the language. When I came here, I didn’t speak the language at all. So I had to teach myself as the same time that I was paying the bills. So let’s talk for a second about, because today you are an immigrant or ex-immigrant. I cannot say that we still immigrants after so many years, but we’re still a woman of color, which are considered in this country.

 

but you’re also a leader. Do you think that having the cultural background makes you being a better leader?

 

Marina Kirschner (03:39)

I think so. think that especially growing up in Latin America where things are not very linear. You know, we have hyperinflation. You have a president that is there for two months and then someone else comes on. You have dictatorships. So I think that coming from Latin America makes you more resilient. And especially at a time right now, what’s going on in the U.S., I think that is really important.

 

to have a leader that knows how to deal with things that are not easy or would change. So I think that it was actually an advantage. And that’s what it goes back is really realizing that even though you’re not from here and there are many things that maybe you didn’t grow up with, you come with a baggage with a lot of different experiences. So if I were to recognize that and then mix it with what’s great about the US, because I think that the US has great things. I’m a fan of the US.

 

I think that the way that we, because we’re Americans now, the way that we think, how organized we are, how things work here, that mix with the culture in Latin America can be a really great combination.

 

Lara Schmoisman (04:46)

And, also I go again, it’s a hard work. And what I feel also that when I’m going to be honest and getting where I am today, it wasn’t easy. It’s not easy to get to a point of leadership for someone who didn’t come to this country. We face even discrimination not being accepted in a job because you have an accent and the accent is there to stay.

 

So you need to learn to accept it and to live with it. And if someone doesn’t like it, you need to say, there a problem? Not yours. But also when you get to this point of leadership, think it makes me, one of the rules that we have at the dark, for example, is to be kind. And I think it’s things that you learn how to value a lot more because you had a lot of people in your life that weren’t kind.

 

Marina Kirschner (05:10)

Yes. Yeah.

 

Lara Schmoisman (05:34)

and also how you lead a team and how you select because you understand the importance of what individuals seeing things from other perspectives can bring to the table.

 

Marina Kirschner (05:34)

Exactly.

 

I 100 % agree with you and I find it very interesting. We talk a lot about diversity today in the US and for me, was like there from the beginning. I always thought and I still think that it’s really important to have people from different backgrounds, people that look different, people that have different sexual orientations. All of that makes a workplace so rich. So I am glad that some of those changes are happening in the US. And then I think that

 

really, and you and I were talking about this, I think that COVID was actually something that really helped with opening, being open-minded and accepting more people from other countries because if you think about it, after COVID, people started, you they wanted to get out of the house, they wanted to get out of the United States too. So you see more people traveling these days. The stat of people not having passports in the past was really high. The majority in the United States didn’t have passports.

 

And after COVID, people started traveling more. They started to be more interested in the world. And what’s happening to me today, and you might experience these, I tell them, where were you born? Where are you from? And I said, I’m originally from Argentina. And they say, how cool. It wasn’t like that when I moved to the US. Now we’re cool. And I think that it’s more because people open parties, social media, and traveling. So there’s a lot of.

 

Lara Schmoisman (06:56)

I know. And now we became something cool. Yes.

 

Marina Kirschner (07:07)

really great things are happening now in the US and people are more welcoming to people from abroad.

 

Lara Schmoisman (07:13)

Yeah, also I remember during COVID, I don’t know if you were part of that, but I was part of a group, a huge group on Facebook, that it was through my window. And people were starting to show what they were seeing in different places of the world through their window. And it was fascinating.

 

Marina Kirschner (07:31)

Yeah, yeah. So I think that, know, great we are facing, especially right now, a lot of issues with immigration and, you discrimination and things like that. Unfortunately, with the government and things like that. But I think that really, I mean, I’m positive and I’m hopeful and I’ve seen the change of, you know, people embracing more people that are different from from from one.

 

Lara Schmoisman (07:56)

Yeah, there is

 

an acceptance. there is an acceptance, but I believe that also that there’s a validation of bringing other things to the table and other knowledge and in our industry, in the beauty industry, also bringing ingredients. I’ve been seeing this a lot and Moroccan oil is a perfect example that you bring different cultures and different ingredients into the beauty space.

 

Marina Kirschner (07:59)

Yes.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Yeah, yeah, it’s like being exotic. People really like that. And, you know, when they talk about Moroccanoil, we ask them, what is the one word that you think of? And they say exotic, you know, and people like that today. You’re exotic. You’re different. People are appreciating that.

 

Lara Schmoisman (08:40)

And which is really interesting about your role that now they are the head of global marketing. but being global means at the same time that you need to understand all these cultures and adapt your brand to different territories. How do you do that?

 

Marina Kirschner (08:57)

Yeah, I think that is a really nice and fun challenge to have right now. know, look, I think that the globalization is real and TikTok and what people are seeing have helped actually almost like we are global citizens. So it makes it easier to, you know, just to be in different countries and remain who you are as a brand, you know, and your personality. But I think that

 

Nowadays, you know on a brand that is expanding into different countries, it’s really important that you know who you are. You know what your personality is, what consumers come to you for, you know what’s ownable to you. So that has been one of the challenges, you know. And we realize that actually the brand and the ethos of the brand and the DNA actually resonates in most countries in the world. And that tells you that like globalization is real and is here, you know, but.

 

There are other things that are challenging, regulatory stuff and ingredients, things like that that we can talk about. But yeah, so some of the things.

 

Lara Schmoisman (09:57)

But did you

 

see something like in the brand image or something that resonates with one culture that didn’t work with another culture?

 

Marina Kirschner (10:06)

Well, the visuals that we use and models that we use is something that I think the industry has evolved as well, showing more diversity or showing more, know, in some countries in Asia, they wanna see a Korean model or they wanna see a Japanese model. So we have had photo shoots or even products that we had to launch for specific countries in the world to adapt to that, yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (10:29)

And so you do the manufacture and everything, but you do a variation of the products just to fit the culture.

 

Marina Kirschner (10:37)

We do both things, but for the main part, it might be a different product or a different packaging. Like, you know, I’ll give you an example. In Asia, the conditioner, the hair conditioner in the US, it’s usually a bottle, right? In Asia, it’s more of a conditioning, a mask product, and it comes in a tube. So our bottle was not working in Asia, and they thought that it was too mask and we’re a prestige brand. So what we had to do is after doing some research in the market,

 

we actually launched the conditioner in a tube. So now in Asia, we have the shampoo in the regular bottle and then the conditioner comes in a tube.

 

Lara Schmoisman (11:14)

and

 

did it change the sales?

 

Marina Kirschner (11:15)

The sales went up. Yeah, we just launched in all of the countries now in Asia recently, but yeah, the acceptance is there. They appreciate that, that we listen to them and that is more relevant to what they’re looking for.

 

Lara Schmoisman (11:28)

And now you guys are launching fragrances. Why was that decision made?

 

Marina Kirschner (11:34)

I think it’s a really great question. at Moroccanoil is really, for us, the consumer is at the center. When I talk about the consumer, it’s the stylist, because we started the salon industry. And for us, the stylist and the professionals are really at the core of the business. So the stylist and the consumers are really what drives most of our decisions, right? So we are very consumer-centric. always listening to what the consumer is looking for. And what happened to us is that

 

We launched, so the brand launched with Haircare, right? And it has a very distinctive packaging, the blue packaging, and also it has a very distinctive fragrance. And consumers always talked about that. And every time we would launch a product on social media, we would tease it. The first comments were, I hope that it’s a perfume. So in listening to the consumers, we decided, you know what?

 

We don’t play in these categories, a category that is really saturated. You have all of the Dewars and you have the Lancones and all those brands are very established in the industry. But you said, you know what? The consumer is asking for these. So if she or he are asking for them, let’s give them what they’re asking for. And that’s honestly how some of the categories actually came to life. know, the perfume is one, but we also launched a body category, know, skincare body category. And that’s because

 

the consumer was putting the oil, the Moroccan oil treatment oil that we use for the hair, that we’re using on their body because of the fragrance and because of the organ oil.

 

Lara Schmoisman (12:54)

I want to make a little pause here and talk to our audience. And this is how important it is to listen to your consumer. How important it is to engage with your consumer and see that you are responding to their needs. That’s what it makes a brand grow.

 

Marina Kirschner (13:12)

Exactly. Yeah. I think it’s really important to be on the pulse of what’s happening on the market. We go out, mean, we’re lucky to be in New York City where a lot of the activity and things are happening. But we go to shows, we listen to podcasts. We’re all the time with my team making sure that we are on the pulse of what’s happening and listen to the consumer. It’s something so basic, listening. I think it’s really, important.

 

Lara Schmoisman (13:35)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. Not hearing, listening. That’s the difference. But Marina, let me ask you about this because I know that you guys for launching a product, it doesn’t come like from one day to another. Hey, let’s have a product. For a brand like Moroccan Oil, do you decide to go into one territory first? Are you testing the waters? I know also that you guys are doing activations. So how do you plan this? Because it’s very different.

 

to launch another product for an established brand that’s to a new brand.

 

Marina Kirschner (14:08)

Yeah. So how we plan innovation is focusing on the product first. It goes back to listening to the consumer one and also seeing what’s out on the market. What are the consumers using or buying that we don’t have? what is that white space for us? So for instance, we didn’t have a living condition for the longer time. And we know that that’s one of the best selling products in the hair care category. So looking at the data,

 

We realized that was a wide space for us. So, you know, it’s really listening to the consumer, really looking at the data. We’re very consumer-centric, but data-driven as well. So looking at that is a really good way of informing ourselves. And because we are global, the last thing I would say is that we try to, you know, understand what’s happening, what’s happening in other countries in skincare. And something in skincare can be translated, especially in ingredients and packaging, I would say.

 

into hair care.

 

Lara Schmoisman (15:08)

That’s so interesting that you mentioned that, but when you launch this, you’d launch this product first in the US and then you try to see if it will resonate with other markets or you plan it as a global international market.

 

Marina Kirschner (15:24)

Yeah, it’s a very good question because we always talk about that internally. We try to launch everything global because the minute that you post something on Instagram and a country like the Netherlands see that they are going to be, don’t I have it? Right. It’s like that. They don’t want to miss out. So we try to have every launch be global.

 

Lara Schmoisman (15:46)

That’s interesting. And how do you forecast how many products you need to make?

 

Marina Kirschner (15:51)

It’s very hard and many… What a pain point you’re bringing up. it’s actually right now, unfortunately, unfortunately, the fragrance that we just launched, the other perfumes actually were out of stock. We launched, we gave exclusivity to Sephora for the first three months and the first day we went out of stock.

 

Lara Schmoisman (15:53)

It’s very hard, it’s one of the hard- It’s one of the hardest things that I hear from brands all the time.

 

Marina Kirschner (16:16)

So I want to say that we try to do a good job, but not always. It’s really hard to know what’s going to go viral. This went viral on TikTok and we sold out. So it’s really hard to forecast. yeah, what we do is obviously we look at historical data. We look at research. So many times we commission research around the world to see what the trends look like. And then we have safety stock.

 

you we’d say that’s something that I think is really important. You have stock for many months and you you try to, and then you cross your fingers.

 

Lara Schmoisman (16:53)

Yeah. And if

 

you have a plan B, that if it doesn’t sell, you’re going to make, that’s what marketing is about.

 

Marina Kirschner (16:57)

Yeah.

 

So the best plan B that we have and for those listening is that we, you know, it’s a sold out five times kind of thing that many brands use. Really the hidden story behind that is that you didn’t forecast correctly many times.

 

Lara Schmoisman (17:09)

Yes.

 

That’s a good trick there. That’s a very good trick. okay, you mentioned it before, TikTok. TikTok is a game changer for many brands, but for many brands, it’s not so many game changer because let’s talk about TikTok for a minute. And what are the truth about TikTok? TikTok shop is not easy. It takes a lot of work and it’s pricey.

 

I’m not going to say that it’s more pricey than other strategies, but it’s something you need to contemplate. So what was your approach to TikTok Shop?

 

Marina Kirschner (17:41)

Yeah.

 

We started testing it like every other brand and we had a lot of conversation with our agency and other brands as well. And you have to just test it, but it’s true that our approach was to start that way first and then we also tested it investing more money. And we realized that unfortunately sometimes it is about spending more money, but it’s also so important is having the right content.

 

You know, it’s like you really need to understand what is working on TikTok, what is resonating and really gear your content to that. And for brands that are in prestige, I find that Lara a little difficult because TikTok is not about that, you what you have in travel retail, what you see at Bloomingdale’s or Saks, right? It’s a little more scrappy and authentic. And sometimes for brands like us, it’s a little hard to be who you are not. So how do you adapt who you are?

 

to a platform like TikTok. So I think that the content is something that is really, important if you wanna play there and play well.

 

Lara Schmoisman (18:50)

Yeah. But also, as you mentioned, the price point, you’ll need to understand what are your audiences for luxury brands and prestige brands. feel like TikTok and TikTok shop can give you a great brand awareness, but not necessarily the purchase will happen there.

 

Marina Kirschner (19:07)

Yeah, exactly. think that it’s exactly what you said. Like we shall see that campaign and the TikTok shop sales is not the way to measure that only. You have to see the halo effect that it has. And that’s what happened many times. It’s hard to measure some of the marketing initiatives that you do, right? Like what is the ROI? What is it like?

 

Lara Schmoisman (19:25)

I love that

 

I’m thinking about asking you a question and you’re already answering it.

 

Marina Kirschner (19:33)

It’s always really hard to convince the CEOs of the world, right? But when you invest in TikTok and you have the right content and the right amount of budget and investment, you can see a halo effect, but it’s not going to be on TikTok shop only. It’s going to be on other things.

 

Lara Schmoisman (19:50)

Yeah. mean,

 

everyone who knows me know that I love data. Data is so important, but it’s really hard to understand sometimes in these days, the consumer journey, because you need to create so much brand awareness. So the consumer might end up buying in Amazon or in your website, but they went and find you. That’s why we had this conversation already, how important is…

 

to have the search everywhere optimization that everyone can find you.

 

Marina Kirschner (20:22)

Yes, yes. And I think that it’s a great conversation to have because I really believe that the consumer today, the lines between the channels have blurred. And I think that we as marketers talk about this product is a mass product. This product is a prestige. This is a professional product. This is a DTC. And I think for the consumer, I asked my daughter, she’s 13, where do you buy that mass or prestige? And she said, what are you talking about?

 

Lara Schmoisman (20:32)

Yeah.

 

Marina Kirschner (20:48)

And I think that’s what’s happening with the consumer. just buy the products. They see it on TikTok. They like it. They buy it. And for them, it’s not about each of the channels. today, it’s more important than ever to understand why the consumer is shopping in each of the channels. Is she going to Sephora to discover? Is she going to the salons for the expertise? Is she repurchasing on Amazon? So once you understand that, it’s easier to sell, it’s easier to communicate to the consumer. And that’s why it really goes back to being consumer centric.

 

Lara Schmoisman (21:17)

Yeah. And it’s understanding who is your consumer. And we had discussion too before that we are that a lot of the brands and many younger brands also make this mistake that is have a really nice branding and packaging and all that, but it’s all about the brand. And right now it’s not all about the brand. It’s all about people are not buying anymore because you have a nice packaging. They want performance. They want that social proof.

 

but also they want to know that it’s accessible to them and that their peers are consuming it.

 

Marina Kirschner (21:52)

Yeah, and to add to that, they want to identify with the purpose of the brand too. You know, so I think like sustainability and, you know, the organizations that you help and do you have a co-founder and those type of things are really important for people. You know, they are looking for brands to provide a lot more than just a product.

 

Lara Schmoisman (21:57)

Yes.

 

Yeah, absolutely. People are attaching to values because there is so much to choose right now that when people are making a lot more informative choices. But at the same time, I think that this is a challenge that we have as marketers because the attention spam is so short that we need to communicate these messages in a very short amount of time.

 

Marina Kirschner (22:18)

Yes.

 

Yeah.

 

Absolutely. I think and be very simple too. And that’s one of the things that we are and how we communicate at Moroccanoil. We are very simple as a brand. So we really focus on the product performance is really important. But the simplicity of talking to the consumer, this is what you’re looking for. This is what we give you. So I think that that in a world that is so there’s so many choices and there’s just like so much going on. think that

 

breaking through the clutter and being very simple and to the point is very important. But to your point, I think performance, when someone thinking of starting a new brand or, know, I think performance is really important because you don’t want your consumer to buy your product once and then go to something else.

 

Lara Schmoisman (23:24)

Yeah, absolutely. You want that loyalty that it’s so important to have a repeat consumer because acquiring a consumer is very expensive. So you need to make sure that you do marketing techniques so you can keep that customer to keep coming and coming, and then you have a lifetime value of the customer. And I think that’s something that a lot of people are not keeping in consideration.

 

Marina Kirschner (23:33)

Exactly.

 

100%.

 

Exactly.

 

Lara Schmoisman (23:52)

But Marocco now right now is growing. It grew a lot in last, I mean, even seven years since you are with the company, you have seen a transition from the brand.

 

Marina Kirschner (24:04)

Yeah, yeah, were, the brand has doubled in the last, I wanna say six, seven years. We have grown globally, but also in the US as well. So yeah, we have a great team, a great product and yeah, we’re lucky to have seen growth. We have expanding into new categories and yeah, the brand has been growing.

 

Lara Schmoisman (24:27)

So how you approach the growth? Because a lot of brands are growing, but also we are spending. And when you plan, I’m not going to ask you overall the company because probably you’re more well related or connected with the marketing budget. But when you plan your marketing budget, what are you thinking? Are you thinking about, I’m doing this for brand awareness? What are the conversations that you have with your agencies?

 

You try to be everyone in the market. Are you analyzing what product goes into a niche or even a sub niche? Are you trying to target them specifically? And also, I have another question for you that I’m throwing everything together because I’ve seen in specifically Moroccan oil, you have a huge generational gap and there is a legacy from mothers to daughters on giving these products for the hair that they work for them. So how do I approach?

 

Marina Kirschner (25:07)

Yeah.

 

Yeah, you’re such a marketer.

 

You’re such a marketer. All really great questions. I love it.

 

Lara Schmoisman (25:23)

It’s in the-

 

But the question is, it’s really

 

hard because as marketers, we always trying to have one target audience, but you have this generation and after generation. how do you approach that legacy?

 

Marina Kirschner (25:35)

huh.

 

Yeah, we actually, I worked for different beauty brands throughout my career and Moro Canoil is the one that resonates with every single demographic and generation really. And that is a great brand to be part of, but it’s also a huge responsibility. So for us, know who is always knowing about who your target consumer is. Like you have a consumer that you work with your agencies and you’re briefing someone, right?

 

So you have your consumer, but also I think that it’s important to have some brands that are going after a younger consumer or some brands are going after a little more of a mature consumer, right? So it really depends on the needs of the consumer. But going back to your question of how do we plan the year, right? How do we build the budgets? How do we build the marketing plan? You know, a lot of that starts with the strategy and it starts with innovation, right? So, you know, to us it’s really about the

 

How do we bring innovative products, new products to the market? But also how do we continue? And I think this is really important in marketing. How do you continue to support your core business? You know, I think that as marketers, it’s easier to usually launch a new product. It’s more exciting, fun. It’s easier to sell it, right? But how do you continue to promote your core business? So we’re always looking at that. know, what are, how do we continue to balance core and innovation? So that’s one of the things that we start with. What is innovation?

 

And based on that, it’s populating the budget. So a lot of that starts with innovation and core business support.

 

Lara Schmoisman (27:14)

And.

 

How do you transmit this message? Because I mean, I can totally see it. A mother saying to a daughter that her hair is out of control. This is what it works for me. How do you create that legacy? Is it messaging that you guys work around or is something that just happened naturally for your brand?

 

Marina Kirschner (27:35)

Yeah. One of the things that going back to the DNA and the core of the brand is the stylist. And now he has changed a little, but in based on past surveys and research, when you ask consumers, how, how did they try a new product? It’s a stylist. Many of them discovered the products when they went to the stylist and that’s how really the brand started. Our co-founder,

 

found this oil, the argan oil, when she went to a salon because she had an issue with her hair color. So that’s how a lot of people discover the products is through the stylist. So to answer your question, how do we communicate our message? A lot of that starts with the stylist. Even when we are at retail, we like to have events and bring the stylist because it’s coming from a professional. It’s really very targeted. So if you have this issue, they look at your hair to do a consultation.

 

And based on that, these are the products that you need. So it’s not so much about, we need to understand is your hair thinning because of aging, that you just have a baby. So you need to understand all of that. But it’s more about doing a thorough consultation, looking at the hair, understanding your lifestyle, and from there, recommending the products.

 

Lara Schmoisman (28:43)

So a lot of the recommendations today comes through social media. What’s your take on influencers slash content creators slash ambassadors, brand ambassadors, and why do you think that’s a feature?

 

Marina Kirschner (28:57)

Yeah, I think that partnering with the right ambassadors and influencers is really important. I think that consumers realize who is really authentic, who’s really using the products because they’re getting paid or because they really wanna be part of the brand. So for us, the strategy when it comes to influencers is really to make them as part of the family. It’s just like really choose someone that…

 

that have been using Moroccano for a long time that likes the products because they’re going to be able to talk to your consumers in more authentic way. So the influencers are really important. The other ones that are influencers for us are the stylists, right? The stylists that have been using the brand, that have been using the products, and that can actually help and educate the consumers on how to use them.

 

Lara Schmoisman (29:41)

Education is fundamental. How do you do the education? To me as a marketer, always say that SEO and everyone knows me that I talk about search everywhere optimization and that we need to start adopting keywords and long keywords and have them everywhere to have the, you control your brand narrative. And even today you need to, to structure your data for chat GPT and to appear in.

 

in AI? Absolutely.

 

Marina Kirschner (30:10)

You have to optimize it, yeah?

 

Lara Schmoisman (30:13)

So how you guys approach this in different markets?

 

Marina Kirschner (30:18)

Yeah, so we work a lot with the search agency to understand what the consumer, the keywords look like. And actually we use those words when we’re doing product development. So the name of our products are optimized to make sure that when the consumer is looking for something that we actually have the name on the product or the romance copy. you know, thinking about, we’re very thoughtful in those things is really the little things are really important.

 

And search can be used really in product development, can be used in PDPs, the way that you communicate to consumers in print advertising. I think that search is really important because it goes back to this is how the consumer is searching. This is consumer behavior. And marketing is really a lot about that. It’s a lot about consumer behavior and psychology, right? Really understanding how the consumer thinks and acts.

 

Lara Schmoisman (31:07)

I’m a firm believer that PR is part of marketing, but first you have to have marketing first. need to have your marketing in place when you start PR. But also we’ve seen that PR has been going through a big transition in the last few years that it’s harder to get this organic PR and get placement. What’s your approach on budget? How to modify or just tweak budget to fit the PR new needs?

 

Or have you decided, okay, we’re just gonna be moving to organic and I decide to put the budget somewhere else.

 

Marina Kirschner (31:43)

Yeah. Sorry.

 

Lara Schmoisman (31:44)

That’s okay. We can.

 

Marina Kirschner (31:45)

I mean,

 

Sorry about that. So how PR has evolved? PR has definitely evolved over the years, which I think is such an exciting time to be part of PR. And I think that sometimes PR gets a bad PR, like PR is the past. And I actually think that if PR adapts to what the consumer is looking for today, it’s a really exciting time to be part of it. And what are some of the things that we do? We know that

 

Lara Schmoisman (31:47)

That’s okay.

 

Marina Kirschner (32:14)

print, example, is not, know, some of the magazines have pulled it, so it’s not as important as it used to be. So you have to really, you know, try to meet the consumer where he or she is, right? So if the consumer used to buy magazines and now she’s actually looking at the brand when she’s walking down the street, out of home is a great media play for the brand. So those are some of the things that we have been doing. We realized like right after COVID, people started to go.

 

Lara Schmoisman (32:34)

You’re right.

 

Marina Kirschner (32:41)

Google go out and i used to take the subway and walk on pete avenue coming to lexington and fifty seven we are and i realize all these really good media like i’m looking at these i was going out in the world after like ten years and i started to see in the out of home i want to know you know what we put the brand out there so it’s really you know those those type of things have evolved in a beauty brand sitting used to be in those out of home.

 

bus stops and now they are part of that. So those are some of the new ways of doing PR and media these days. So you do have to adapt. I tell the team always let’s bake a new cake. What is the new cake that we’re baking? Right? So we always need to be thinking in advance, know, what things can we do that are innovative when it comes to PR.

 

Lara Schmoisman (33:25)

Yeah, that’s a great, great example. But what about experiences? Because right now, something that I’ve seen working really well for brands are experiences.

 

Marina Kirschner (33:37)

Yes, yes. That’s one of the things that we’ve been doing a lot. We just came from sponsoring the Miami Open, the tennis open in Miami. And I think that doing experiences, it’s very tempting. The consumers looking for that. We know that the shows sell out, that people are going to concerts more, people are going more to restaurants, people are going out and looking for experiences. And I think that it’s part

 

Lara Schmoisman (33:46)

Hmm?

 

Marina Kirschner (34:04)

has to do with like living the today and these like what I call the minor stones and really enjoying the everyday. So it has to do with like consumers are people are looking for more of that experiences. So as a brand, we have evolved in looking into that. And really, which I think is key Lara is understanding what’s ownable to you, what makes sense for you as a brand, because Coachella, for example, has been really popular for many years, but it’s not really doesn’t really fit our brand, right?

 

Lara Schmoisman (34:32)

Mm-hmm.

 

Marina Kirschner (34:32)

So for

 

us, it’s really important to understand we are a lifestyle brand, right? So Miami Open, Tenny, has really made sense for us, right? So it’s really understanding what’s ownable and what makes sense for you and your brand to make sure that the consumer, when they see your brand there, they’re like, oh, that’s great, makes sense, right? It’s not out of place.

 

Lara Schmoisman (34:40)

Absolutely.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah, they can put two and two together and even though it doesn’t make four, but it makes sense.

 

Marina Kirschner (34:58)

Exactly, exactly. You don’t want to be out of place, right? You want to feel comfortable as a brand too. Like if you show up at Coachella, like I wouldn’t even know how to do the activation there, right? So it’s like you have to show up in a way that you feel comfortable. Like if I don’t, I don’t feel comfortable in miniskirt, I’m not going to wear a miniskirt.

 

Lara Schmoisman (35:01)

Yes.

 

Yeah.

 

But when you

 

do an activation, how do you… Because that’s a great experience for the consumer, but then you need to make sure that doing an activation is not enough. Then they need to see you again. An activation is part of a plan.

 

Marina Kirschner (35:27)

Yes, yes. The 360 that we usually talk about in marketing, think is really important and following the consumer through the funnel, I think is really important. So if you understand that your consumer watches tennis and then she’s also interested in traveling to certain place or she buys certain brands or she watches certain TV programs, you you have to make sure that you have a plan to target your consumer where she is and when she is.

 

Lara Schmoisman (35:55)

Absolutely. Do you guys use data from third parties to understand who your consumer?

 

Marina Kirschner (36:00)

Yes.

 

Yes, yes, we do. We use some of the research companies. also commission studies in other countries to find out how is the consumer like in India or Korea. For those type of things, we commission data as well. But we do. We do. It’s very, very important for us. We’re a very data-driven company. We’re small. We’re nimble and agile, but data is really important.

 

Lara Schmoisman (36:26)

What do you think is the biggest challenge nowadays? And let’s not even go to the tariffs that are currently as we are recording this podcast. But what do you think that currently is the biggest challenge for a beauty brand or cosmetic brand in this market, an international market? Because I have a same as you, I believe in a global market. don’t believe, I feel like if someone sees your product in another country and they want it,

 

Why not?

 

Marina Kirschner (36:56)

Exactly, yeah. There are two main challenges that come to mind. I’m gonna start with the unsexy one and then go to one that is a little more interesting. The unsexy one is the regulations. The regulations are just something that, for those listening, the regulations usually on what ingredients you can use or the packaging that you can use, that usually starts in.

 

in Europe, but in California as well. And if you are a global brand and you’re trying to optimize your packaging and formulas, you try to be global, right? But with all of these regulations, it makes it really, hard for you to have global formulas. If you don’t have global formulas, the MOQs are affected, right? The minimum order point is known as the MOQs. So regulatory and all of that is really a big challenge for global brands right now.

 

And I would say global brands are not really, really big because brands like Lother, they’re like so big that they could have their own formulas for different territories. We are a mid-sized company where we want to have global formulas, but the MOQs are going to be hard to meet if we have too many different formulas.

 

Lara Schmoisman (37:59)

Yeah.

 

Absolutely. And what’s a sexy one?

 

Marina Kirschner (38:10)

The sexy one is content. We touch a little bit on that. I think that you have to produce so much content nowadays to be relevant and to adapt to what the consumer is looking for. That is one of the, an opportunity, I wouldn’t call it so much challenge, but is how do you produce enough content that is actually ownable, right? So.

 

Lara Schmoisman (38:34)

Mm-hmm.

 

Marina Kirschner (38:35)

You know if you are a prestige brand your content is usually going to be a little more sophisticated or you know the audience maybe is looking for something different and something that is very authentic. Even though you wanna do you want to be that way is a little harder ride it to produce really quickly and cheap cost so i think that the velocity in which you produce a content.

 

Lara Schmoisman (38:58)

and the cost of

 

content.

 

Marina Kirschner (39:01)

Yes, yes, the cost of content. So it’s, how fast can you produce it? A and B, how do you make sure that is still ownable to you? That is something that represents your brand.

 

Lara Schmoisman (39:11)

Absolutely. those challenges are really valid and I think that they are valid from a small company to a bigger company. I think that the same challenges that everyone is experiencing. So you need to budget for that. That’s the only answer I can give you.

 

Marina Kirschner (39:30)

Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. And sometimes it’s, you do something, you test it and then be agile and nimble to be able to see what works and then go and produce more of that content, you know? So I would say, you know, have the people ready, the content studios, the photographers that you trust, have those people that you can reach out, the influencers, you know, that you trust, that you can reach out to produce content as needed.

 

Lara Schmoisman (39:57)

Absolutely. Yeah. It’s really important. Like I always say, you have a strategy for the year, but I only plan little blocks of time. And I learned this through COVID. I was working way ahead of time and COVID taught me never to do that again. Because you and how social media is working and the trends are changing constantly. You need to be able to jump into those trends.

 

Marina Kirschner (40:22)

Yeah, absolutely. And identify what you think that is going to resonate and jump into those that you think are going to resonate. Some of them may be not as relevant to you. So it’s really important that you’re very thoughtful and strategic at the same time as you’re nimble and agile.

 

Lara Schmoisman (40:31)

Exactly.

 

I have a last question for you, Marina. And I know that I know the answer, but I want people to know it. As a marketer, how much do you use your gut feeling?

 

Marina Kirschner (40:46)

a lot. think that instincts are really important. You know, you see art and the science a little bit, right? And then the instincts that kick in. And it’s just like so important to really you look at the data, but also listen to what the instinct is telling you. What is the gut? What is, know, what is like

 

Lara Schmoisman (40:54)

and

 

Yeah,

 

yeah. Like I say, it’s a combination of your experience, your instinct, your education, the data is you can not put it together, but your stomach is telling you something and it never goes wrong.

 

Marina Kirschner (41:16)

Yeah, and

 

1. And speak up. I find and I tell my teams, if you have a strong feeling about something, just speak up. Get a seat at the table and share that. And it has happened to me in the past where I had a gut and I didn’t feel comfortable. Back when I started my career and I didn’t talk about it and then I regretted. I knew that was wrong. I shouldn’t have approved that. So I think that following your gut and your instincts is really important.

 

Lara Schmoisman (41:44)

Yeah, but sometimes it’s hard when you’re starting your career and mostly for us being women’s immigrants to speak up because we already have everything against us when you’re starting on top of being young.

 

Marina Kirschner (41:56)

Exactly.

 

Exactly. I totally understand that. Yeah, I agree with you.

 

Lara Schmoisman (42:02)

Okay, well Marina, thank you so much for having coffee with me. This was really great.

 

Marina Kirschner (42:07)

Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure talking to you, always.

 

Lara Schmoisman (42:10)

And

 

to you guys, I hope that it was helpful. It was really helpful for me. And I always really love talking to another marketer, but in this case, another friend. So I hope that it was good for you to leave us some messages in the notes of the episode. And I will see you next week with more Coffee No. 5.

Lara Schmoisman (00:11)

Hi guys, welcome back to coffee number five. And today I have a double treat for you. You get my sexy accent, but you get someone else sexy accent as well. yeah, I mean, we had to deal with accents. We had to deal to come into a new country to bring a different culture, but somehow we were able to do it. We were able, and if we were able to do it, I don’t see why others can’t. It’s a lot of great, but.

 

There is a lot of work involved, but it’s doable. So I want to welcome today a dear friend, but also an incredible leader, Marina Kirchner. Marina is also from Argentina and she has an incredible career here in the United States in the beauty industry. Today she is, we wouldn’t let her introduce herself. Welcome Marina.

 

Marina Kirschner (01:01)

Thank you. am so happy to be here with you and what a nice introduction.

 

Lara Schmoisman (01:06)

Well, tell us a little more about your career. How old you were when you came to the US and how did you get to where you are today?

 

Marina Kirschner (01:14)

Sure, yeah. So I’m currently the global head of marketing for Moroccan Oil. I’ve been here for about seven years, but I’ve been in the US for about 20 years. And I moved to the US following a boyfriend, now my husband. And I came here without knowing people. had a career in Argentina. I studied finance and economics. I was in consumer products. And when I came to the US, I had to really reinvent myself.

 

And I think that over the years, I realized that the US is really the land of opportunities. And if you work hard and you really are determined and have self-confidence, you can really make it in the United States. So yeah, I’ve been in the beauty industry for the last 18 years. I’ve been in bigger, larger corporations, and I’m now being in Moroccano, like I said, for seven years.

 

Lara Schmoisman (02:07)

It’s very interesting and I believe you just said the most important keyword there is to work hard. I think that this goes for any culture, even if you are born and raised here. But I have a question for you. Do you feel like it was harder for you because you came from a different culture?

 

Marina Kirschner (02:28)

I think so. think that when you’re making me really think about it and the reality is that it’s hard to be an immigrant. It’s hard to be a woman immigrant. It’s hard to come from a different culture, to come from just speaking a different language. And I went to really good school, they prepare in Argentina. When I came here, I felt like, as I said, like I had to start from scratch. it was not easy, but I think that

 

It really goes back to the resiliency and to knowing that you can do it and trusting yourself by the to be honest, it was it was not easy. It was not easy.

 

Lara Schmoisman (03:05)

Believe

 

me, it wasn’t easy for me either. And you had the advantage of the spoke the language. When I came here, I didn’t speak the language at all. So I had to teach myself as the same time that I was paying the bills. So let’s talk for a second about, because today you are an immigrant or ex-immigrant. I cannot say that we still immigrants after so many years, but we’re still a woman of color, which are considered in this country.

 

but you’re also a leader. Do you think that having the cultural background makes you being a better leader?

 

Marina Kirschner (03:39)

I think so. think that especially growing up in Latin America where things are not very linear. You know, we have hyperinflation. You have a president that is there for two months and then someone else comes on. You have dictatorships. So I think that coming from Latin America makes you more resilient. And especially at a time right now, what’s going on in the U.S., I think that is really important.

 

to have a leader that knows how to deal with things that are not easy or would change. So I think that it was actually an advantage. And that’s what it goes back is really realizing that even though you’re not from here and there are many things that maybe you didn’t grow up with, you come with a baggage with a lot of different experiences. So if I were to recognize that and then mix it with what’s great about the US, because I think that the US has great things. I’m a fan of the US.

 

I think that the way that we, because we’re Americans now, the way that we think, how organized we are, how things work here, that mix with the culture in Latin America can be a really great combination.

 

Lara Schmoisman (04:46)

And, also I go again, it’s a hard work. And what I feel also that when I’m going to be honest and getting where I am today, it wasn’t easy. It’s not easy to get to a point of leadership for someone who didn’t come to this country. We face even discrimination not being accepted in a job because you have an accent and the accent is there to stay.

 

So you need to learn to accept it and to live with it. And if someone doesn’t like it, you need to say, there a problem? Not yours. But also when you get to this point of leadership, think it makes me, one of the rules that we have at the dark, for example, is to be kind. And I think it’s things that you learn how to value a lot more because you had a lot of people in your life that weren’t kind.

 

Marina Kirschner (05:10)

Yes. Yeah.

 

Lara Schmoisman (05:34)

and also how you lead a team and how you select because you understand the importance of what individuals seeing things from other perspectives can bring to the table.

 

Marina Kirschner (05:34)

Exactly.

 

I 100 % agree with you and I find it very interesting. We talk a lot about diversity today in the US and for me, was like there from the beginning. I always thought and I still think that it’s really important to have people from different backgrounds, people that look different, people that have different sexual orientations. All of that makes a workplace so rich. So I am glad that some of those changes are happening in the US. And then I think that

 

really, and you and I were talking about this, I think that COVID was actually something that really helped with opening, being open-minded and accepting more people from other countries because if you think about it, after COVID, people started, you they wanted to get out of the house, they wanted to get out of the United States too. So you see more people traveling these days. The stat of people not having passports in the past was really high. The majority in the United States didn’t have passports.

 

And after COVID, people started traveling more. They started to be more interested in the world. And what’s happening to me today, and you might experience these, I tell them, where were you born? Where are you from? And I said, I’m originally from Argentina. And they say, how cool. It wasn’t like that when I moved to the US. Now we’re cool. And I think that it’s more because people open parties, social media, and traveling. So there’s a lot of.

 

Lara Schmoisman (06:56)

I know. And now we became something cool. Yes.

 

Marina Kirschner (07:07)

really great things are happening now in the US and people are more welcoming to people from abroad.

 

Lara Schmoisman (07:13)

Yeah, also I remember during COVID, I don’t know if you were part of that, but I was part of a group, a huge group on Facebook, that it was through my window. And people were starting to show what they were seeing in different places of the world through their window. And it was fascinating.

 

Marina Kirschner (07:31)

Yeah, yeah. So I think that, know, great we are facing, especially right now, a lot of issues with immigration and, you discrimination and things like that. Unfortunately, with the government and things like that. But I think that really, I mean, I’m positive and I’m hopeful and I’ve seen the change of, you know, people embracing more people that are different from from from one.

 

Lara Schmoisman (07:56)

Yeah, there is

 

an acceptance. there is an acceptance, but I believe that also that there’s a validation of bringing other things to the table and other knowledge and in our industry, in the beauty industry, also bringing ingredients. I’ve been seeing this a lot and Moroccan oil is a perfect example that you bring different cultures and different ingredients into the beauty space.

 

Marina Kirschner (07:59)

Yes.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Yeah, yeah, it’s like being exotic. People really like that. And, you know, when they talk about Moroccanoil, we ask them, what is the one word that you think of? And they say exotic, you know, and people like that today. You’re exotic. You’re different. People are appreciating that.

 

Lara Schmoisman (08:40)

And which is really interesting about your role that now they are the head of global marketing. but being global means at the same time that you need to understand all these cultures and adapt your brand to different territories. How do you do that?

 

Marina Kirschner (08:57)

Yeah, I think that is a really nice and fun challenge to have right now. know, look, I think that the globalization is real and TikTok and what people are seeing have helped actually almost like we are global citizens. So it makes it easier to, you know, just to be in different countries and remain who you are as a brand, you know, and your personality. But I think that

 

Nowadays, you know on a brand that is expanding into different countries, it’s really important that you know who you are. You know what your personality is, what consumers come to you for, you know what’s ownable to you. So that has been one of the challenges, you know. And we realize that actually the brand and the ethos of the brand and the DNA actually resonates in most countries in the world. And that tells you that like globalization is real and is here, you know, but.

 

There are other things that are challenging, regulatory stuff and ingredients, things like that that we can talk about. But yeah, so some of the things.

 

Lara Schmoisman (09:57)

But did you

 

see something like in the brand image or something that resonates with one culture that didn’t work with another culture?

 

Marina Kirschner (10:06)

Well, the visuals that we use and models that we use is something that I think the industry has evolved as well, showing more diversity or showing more, know, in some countries in Asia, they wanna see a Korean model or they wanna see a Japanese model. So we have had photo shoots or even products that we had to launch for specific countries in the world to adapt to that, yes.

 

Lara Schmoisman (10:29)

And so you do the manufacture and everything, but you do a variation of the products just to fit the culture.

 

Marina Kirschner (10:37)

We do both things, but for the main part, it might be a different product or a different packaging. Like, you know, I’ll give you an example. In Asia, the conditioner, the hair conditioner in the US, it’s usually a bottle, right? In Asia, it’s more of a conditioning, a mask product, and it comes in a tube. So our bottle was not working in Asia, and they thought that it was too mask and we’re a prestige brand. So what we had to do is after doing some research in the market,

 

we actually launched the conditioner in a tube. So now in Asia, we have the shampoo in the regular bottle and then the conditioner comes in a tube.

 

Lara Schmoisman (11:14)

and

 

did it change the sales?

 

Marina Kirschner (11:15)

The sales went up. Yeah, we just launched in all of the countries now in Asia recently, but yeah, the acceptance is there. They appreciate that, that we listen to them and that is more relevant to what they’re looking for.

 

Lara Schmoisman (11:28)

And now you guys are launching fragrances. Why was that decision made?

 

Marina Kirschner (11:34)

I think it’s a really great question. at Moroccanoil is really, for us, the consumer is at the center. When I talk about the consumer, it’s the stylist, because we started the salon industry. And for us, the stylist and the professionals are really at the core of the business. So the stylist and the consumers are really what drives most of our decisions, right? So we are very consumer-centric. always listening to what the consumer is looking for. And what happened to us is that

 

We launched, so the brand launched with Haircare, right? And it has a very distinctive packaging, the blue packaging, and also it has a very distinctive fragrance. And consumers always talked about that. And every time we would launch a product on social media, we would tease it. The first comments were, I hope that it’s a perfume. So in listening to the consumers, we decided, you know what?

 

We don’t play in these categories, a category that is really saturated. You have all of the Dewars and you have the Lancones and all those brands are very established in the industry. But you said, you know what? The consumer is asking for these. So if she or he are asking for them, let’s give them what they’re asking for. And that’s honestly how some of the categories actually came to life. know, the perfume is one, but we also launched a body category, know, skincare body category. And that’s because

 

the consumer was putting the oil, the Moroccan oil treatment oil that we use for the hair, that we’re using on their body because of the fragrance and because of the organ oil.

 

Lara Schmoisman (12:54)

I want to make a little pause here and talk to our audience. And this is how important it is to listen to your consumer. How important it is to engage with your consumer and see that you are responding to their needs. That’s what it makes a brand grow.

 

Marina Kirschner (13:12)

Exactly. Yeah. I think it’s really important to be on the pulse of what’s happening on the market. We go out, mean, we’re lucky to be in New York City where a lot of the activity and things are happening. But we go to shows, we listen to podcasts. We’re all the time with my team making sure that we are on the pulse of what’s happening and listen to the consumer. It’s something so basic, listening. I think it’s really, important.

 

Lara Schmoisman (13:35)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. Not hearing, listening. That’s the difference. But Marina, let me ask you about this because I know that you guys for launching a product, it doesn’t come like from one day to another. Hey, let’s have a product. For a brand like Moroccan Oil, do you decide to go into one territory first? Are you testing the waters? I know also that you guys are doing activations. So how do you plan this? Because it’s very different.

 

to launch another product for an established brand that’s to a new brand.

 

Marina Kirschner (14:08)

Yeah. So how we plan innovation is focusing on the product first. It goes back to listening to the consumer one and also seeing what’s out on the market. What are the consumers using or buying that we don’t have? what is that white space for us? So for instance, we didn’t have a living condition for the longer time. And we know that that’s one of the best selling products in the hair care category. So looking at the data,

 

We realized that was a wide space for us. So, you know, it’s really listening to the consumer, really looking at the data. We’re very consumer-centric, but data-driven as well. So looking at that is a really good way of informing ourselves. And because we are global, the last thing I would say is that we try to, you know, understand what’s happening, what’s happening in other countries in skincare. And something in skincare can be translated, especially in ingredients and packaging, I would say.

 

into hair care.

 

Lara Schmoisman (15:08)

That’s so interesting that you mentioned that, but when you launch this, you’d launch this product first in the US and then you try to see if it will resonate with other markets or you plan it as a global international market.

 

Marina Kirschner (15:24)

Yeah, it’s a very good question because we always talk about that internally. We try to launch everything global because the minute that you post something on Instagram and a country like the Netherlands see that they are going to be, don’t I have it? Right. It’s like that. They don’t want to miss out. So we try to have every launch be global.

 

Lara Schmoisman (15:46)

That’s interesting. And how do you forecast how many products you need to make?

 

Marina Kirschner (15:51)

It’s very hard and many… What a pain point you’re bringing up. it’s actually right now, unfortunately, unfortunately, the fragrance that we just launched, the other perfumes actually were out of stock. We launched, we gave exclusivity to Sephora for the first three months and the first day we went out of stock.

 

Lara Schmoisman (15:53)

It’s very hard, it’s one of the hard- It’s one of the hardest things that I hear from brands all the time.

 

Marina Kirschner (16:16)

So I want to say that we try to do a good job, but not always. It’s really hard to know what’s going to go viral. This went viral on TikTok and we sold out. So it’s really hard to forecast. yeah, what we do is obviously we look at historical data. We look at research. So many times we commission research around the world to see what the trends look like. And then we have safety stock.

 

you we’d say that’s something that I think is really important. You have stock for many months and you you try to, and then you cross your fingers.

 

Lara Schmoisman (16:53)

Yeah. And if

 

you have a plan B, that if it doesn’t sell, you’re going to make, that’s what marketing is about.

 

Marina Kirschner (16:57)

Yeah.

 

So the best plan B that we have and for those listening is that we, you know, it’s a sold out five times kind of thing that many brands use. Really the hidden story behind that is that you didn’t forecast correctly many times.

 

Lara Schmoisman (17:09)

Yes.

 

That’s a good trick there. That’s a very good trick. okay, you mentioned it before, TikTok. TikTok is a game changer for many brands, but for many brands, it’s not so many game changer because let’s talk about TikTok for a minute. And what are the truth about TikTok? TikTok shop is not easy. It takes a lot of work and it’s pricey.

 

I’m not going to say that it’s more pricey than other strategies, but it’s something you need to contemplate. So what was your approach to TikTok Shop?

 

Marina Kirschner (17:41)

Yeah.

 

We started testing it like every other brand and we had a lot of conversation with our agency and other brands as well. And you have to just test it, but it’s true that our approach was to start that way first and then we also tested it investing more money. And we realized that unfortunately sometimes it is about spending more money, but it’s also so important is having the right content.

 

You know, it’s like you really need to understand what is working on TikTok, what is resonating and really gear your content to that. And for brands that are in prestige, I find that Lara a little difficult because TikTok is not about that, you what you have in travel retail, what you see at Bloomingdale’s or Saks, right? It’s a little more scrappy and authentic. And sometimes for brands like us, it’s a little hard to be who you are not. So how do you adapt who you are?

 

to a platform like TikTok. So I think that the content is something that is really, important if you wanna play there and play well.

 

Lara Schmoisman (18:50)

Yeah. But also, as you mentioned, the price point, you’ll need to understand what are your audiences for luxury brands and prestige brands. feel like TikTok and TikTok shop can give you a great brand awareness, but not necessarily the purchase will happen there.

 

Marina Kirschner (19:07)

Yeah, exactly. think that it’s exactly what you said. Like we shall see that campaign and the TikTok shop sales is not the way to measure that only. You have to see the halo effect that it has. And that’s what happened many times. It’s hard to measure some of the marketing initiatives that you do, right? Like what is the ROI? What is it like?

 

Lara Schmoisman (19:25)

I love that

 

I’m thinking about asking you a question and you’re already answering it.

 

Marina Kirschner (19:33)

It’s always really hard to convince the CEOs of the world, right? But when you invest in TikTok and you have the right content and the right amount of budget and investment, you can see a halo effect, but it’s not going to be on TikTok shop only. It’s going to be on other things.

 

Lara Schmoisman (19:50)

Yeah. mean,

 

everyone who knows me know that I love data. Data is so important, but it’s really hard to understand sometimes in these days, the consumer journey, because you need to create so much brand awareness. So the consumer might end up buying in Amazon or in your website, but they went and find you. That’s why we had this conversation already, how important is…

 

to have the search everywhere optimization that everyone can find you.

 

Marina Kirschner (20:22)

Yes, yes. And I think that it’s a great conversation to have because I really believe that the consumer today, the lines between the channels have blurred. And I think that we as marketers talk about this product is a mass product. This product is a prestige. This is a professional product. This is a DTC. And I think for the consumer, I asked my daughter, she’s 13, where do you buy that mass or prestige? And she said, what are you talking about?

 

Lara Schmoisman (20:32)

Yeah.

 

Marina Kirschner (20:48)

And I think that’s what’s happening with the consumer. just buy the products. They see it on TikTok. They like it. They buy it. And for them, it’s not about each of the channels. today, it’s more important than ever to understand why the consumer is shopping in each of the channels. Is she going to Sephora to discover? Is she going to the salons for the expertise? Is she repurchasing on Amazon? So once you understand that, it’s easier to sell, it’s easier to communicate to the consumer. And that’s why it really goes back to being consumer centric.

 

Lara Schmoisman (21:17)

Yeah. And it’s understanding who is your consumer. And we had discussion too before that we are that a lot of the brands and many younger brands also make this mistake that is have a really nice branding and packaging and all that, but it’s all about the brand. And right now it’s not all about the brand. It’s all about people are not buying anymore because you have a nice packaging. They want performance. They want that social proof.

 

but also they want to know that it’s accessible to them and that their peers are consuming it.

 

Marina Kirschner (21:52)

Yeah, and to add to that, they want to identify with the purpose of the brand too. You know, so I think like sustainability and, you know, the organizations that you help and do you have a co-founder and those type of things are really important for people. You know, they are looking for brands to provide a lot more than just a product.

 

Lara Schmoisman (21:57)

Yes.

 

Yeah, absolutely. People are attaching to values because there is so much to choose right now that when people are making a lot more informative choices. But at the same time, I think that this is a challenge that we have as marketers because the attention spam is so short that we need to communicate these messages in a very short amount of time.

 

Marina Kirschner (22:18)

Yes.

 

Yeah.

 

Absolutely. I think and be very simple too. And that’s one of the things that we are and how we communicate at Moroccanoil. We are very simple as a brand. So we really focus on the product performance is really important. But the simplicity of talking to the consumer, this is what you’re looking for. This is what we give you. So I think that that in a world that is so there’s so many choices and there’s just like so much going on. think that

 

breaking through the clutter and being very simple and to the point is very important. But to your point, I think performance, when someone thinking of starting a new brand or, know, I think performance is really important because you don’t want your consumer to buy your product once and then go to something else.

 

Lara Schmoisman (23:24)

Yeah, absolutely. You want that loyalty that it’s so important to have a repeat consumer because acquiring a consumer is very expensive. So you need to make sure that you do marketing techniques so you can keep that customer to keep coming and coming, and then you have a lifetime value of the customer. And I think that’s something that a lot of people are not keeping in consideration.

 

Marina Kirschner (23:33)

Exactly.

 

100%.

 

Exactly.

 

Lara Schmoisman (23:52)

But Marocco now right now is growing. It grew a lot in last, I mean, even seven years since you are with the company, you have seen a transition from the brand.

 

Marina Kirschner (24:04)

Yeah, yeah, were, the brand has doubled in the last, I wanna say six, seven years. We have grown globally, but also in the US as well. So yeah, we have a great team, a great product and yeah, we’re lucky to have seen growth. We have expanding into new categories and yeah, the brand has been growing.

 

Lara Schmoisman (24:27)

So how you approach the growth? Because a lot of brands are growing, but also we are spending. And when you plan, I’m not going to ask you overall the company because probably you’re more well related or connected with the marketing budget. But when you plan your marketing budget, what are you thinking? Are you thinking about, I’m doing this for brand awareness? What are the conversations that you have with your agencies?

 

You try to be everyone in the market. Are you analyzing what product goes into a niche or even a sub niche? Are you trying to target them specifically? And also, I have another question for you that I’m throwing everything together because I’ve seen in specifically Moroccan oil, you have a huge generational gap and there is a legacy from mothers to daughters on giving these products for the hair that they work for them. So how do I approach?

 

Marina Kirschner (25:07)

Yeah.

 

Yeah, you’re such a marketer.

 

You’re such a marketer. All really great questions. I love it.

 

Lara Schmoisman (25:23)

It’s in the-

 

But the question is, it’s really

 

hard because as marketers, we always trying to have one target audience, but you have this generation and after generation. how do you approach that legacy?

 

Marina Kirschner (25:35)

huh.

 

Yeah, we actually, I worked for different beauty brands throughout my career and Moro Canoil is the one that resonates with every single demographic and generation really. And that is a great brand to be part of, but it’s also a huge responsibility. So for us, know who is always knowing about who your target consumer is. Like you have a consumer that you work with your agencies and you’re briefing someone, right?

 

So you have your consumer, but also I think that it’s important to have some brands that are going after a younger consumer or some brands are going after a little more of a mature consumer, right? So it really depends on the needs of the consumer. But going back to your question of how do we plan the year, right? How do we build the budgets? How do we build the marketing plan? You know, a lot of that starts with the strategy and it starts with innovation, right? So, you know, to us it’s really about the

 

How do we bring innovative products, new products to the market? But also how do we continue? And I think this is really important in marketing. How do you continue to support your core business? You know, I think that as marketers, it’s easier to usually launch a new product. It’s more exciting, fun. It’s easier to sell it, right? But how do you continue to promote your core business? So we’re always looking at that. know, what are, how do we continue to balance core and innovation? So that’s one of the things that we start with. What is innovation?

 

And based on that, it’s populating the budget. So a lot of that starts with innovation and core business support.

 

Lara Schmoisman (27:14)

And.

 

How do you transmit this message? Because I mean, I can totally see it. A mother saying to a daughter that her hair is out of control. This is what it works for me. How do you create that legacy? Is it messaging that you guys work around or is something that just happened naturally for your brand?

 

Marina Kirschner (27:35)

Yeah. One of the things that going back to the DNA and the core of the brand is the stylist. And now he has changed a little, but in based on past surveys and research, when you ask consumers, how, how did they try a new product? It’s a stylist. Many of them discovered the products when they went to the stylist and that’s how really the brand started. Our co-founder,

 

found this oil, the argan oil, when she went to a salon because she had an issue with her hair color. So that’s how a lot of people discover the products is through the stylist. So to answer your question, how do we communicate our message? A lot of that starts with the stylist. Even when we are at retail, we like to have events and bring the stylist because it’s coming from a professional. It’s really very targeted. So if you have this issue, they look at your hair to do a consultation.

 

And based on that, these are the products that you need. So it’s not so much about, we need to understand is your hair thinning because of aging, that you just have a baby. So you need to understand all of that. But it’s more about doing a thorough consultation, looking at the hair, understanding your lifestyle, and from there, recommending the products.

 

Lara Schmoisman (28:43)

So a lot of the recommendations today comes through social media. What’s your take on influencers slash content creators slash ambassadors, brand ambassadors, and why do you think that’s a feature?

 

Marina Kirschner (28:57)

Yeah, I think that partnering with the right ambassadors and influencers is really important. I think that consumers realize who is really authentic, who’s really using the products because they’re getting paid or because they really wanna be part of the brand. So for us, the strategy when it comes to influencers is really to make them as part of the family. It’s just like really choose someone that…

 

that have been using Moroccano for a long time that likes the products because they’re going to be able to talk to your consumers in more authentic way. So the influencers are really important. The other ones that are influencers for us are the stylists, right? The stylists that have been using the brand, that have been using the products, and that can actually help and educate the consumers on how to use them.

 

Lara Schmoisman (29:41)

Education is fundamental. How do you do the education? To me as a marketer, always say that SEO and everyone knows me that I talk about search everywhere optimization and that we need to start adopting keywords and long keywords and have them everywhere to have the, you control your brand narrative. And even today you need to, to structure your data for chat GPT and to appear in.

 

in AI? Absolutely.

 

Marina Kirschner (30:10)

You have to optimize it, yeah?

 

Lara Schmoisman (30:13)

So how you guys approach this in different markets?

 

Marina Kirschner (30:18)

Yeah, so we work a lot with the search agency to understand what the consumer, the keywords look like. And actually we use those words when we’re doing product development. So the name of our products are optimized to make sure that when the consumer is looking for something that we actually have the name on the product or the romance copy. you know, thinking about, we’re very thoughtful in those things is really the little things are really important.

 

And search can be used really in product development, can be used in PDPs, the way that you communicate to consumers in print advertising. I think that search is really important because it goes back to this is how the consumer is searching. This is consumer behavior. And marketing is really a lot about that. It’s a lot about consumer behavior and psychology, right? Really understanding how the consumer thinks and acts.

 

Lara Schmoisman (31:07)

I’m a firm believer that PR is part of marketing, but first you have to have marketing first. need to have your marketing in place when you start PR. But also we’ve seen that PR has been going through a big transition in the last few years that it’s harder to get this organic PR and get placement. What’s your approach on budget? How to modify or just tweak budget to fit the PR new needs?

 

Or have you decided, okay, we’re just gonna be moving to organic and I decide to put the budget somewhere else.

 

Marina Kirschner (31:43)

Yeah. Sorry.

 

Lara Schmoisman (31:44)

That’s okay. We can.

 

Marina Kirschner (31:45)

I mean,

 

Sorry about that. So how PR has evolved? PR has definitely evolved over the years, which I think is such an exciting time to be part of PR. And I think that sometimes PR gets a bad PR, like PR is the past. And I actually think that if PR adapts to what the consumer is looking for today, it’s a really exciting time to be part of it. And what are some of the things that we do? We know that

 

Lara Schmoisman (31:47)

That’s okay.

 

Marina Kirschner (32:14)

print, example, is not, know, some of the magazines have pulled it, so it’s not as important as it used to be. So you have to really, you know, try to meet the consumer where he or she is, right? So if the consumer used to buy magazines and now she’s actually looking at the brand when she’s walking down the street, out of home is a great media play for the brand. So those are some of the things that we have been doing. We realized like right after COVID, people started to go.

 

Lara Schmoisman (32:34)

You’re right.

 

Marina Kirschner (32:41)

Google go out and i used to take the subway and walk on pete avenue coming to lexington and fifty seven we are and i realize all these really good media like i’m looking at these i was going out in the world after like ten years and i started to see in the out of home i want to know you know what we put the brand out there so it’s really you know those those type of things have evolved in a beauty brand sitting used to be in those out of home.

 

bus stops and now they are part of that. So those are some of the new ways of doing PR and media these days. So you do have to adapt. I tell the team always let’s bake a new cake. What is the new cake that we’re baking? Right? So we always need to be thinking in advance, know, what things can we do that are innovative when it comes to PR.

 

Lara Schmoisman (33:25)

Yeah, that’s a great, great example. But what about experiences? Because right now, something that I’ve seen working really well for brands are experiences.

 

Marina Kirschner (33:37)

Yes, yes. That’s one of the things that we’ve been doing a lot. We just came from sponsoring the Miami Open, the tennis open in Miami. And I think that doing experiences, it’s very tempting. The consumers looking for that. We know that the shows sell out, that people are going to concerts more, people are going more to restaurants, people are going out and looking for experiences. And I think that it’s part

 

Lara Schmoisman (33:46)

Hmm?

 

Marina Kirschner (34:04)

has to do with like living the today and these like what I call the minor stones and really enjoying the everyday. So it has to do with like consumers are people are looking for more of that experiences. So as a brand, we have evolved in looking into that. And really, which I think is key Lara is understanding what’s ownable to you, what makes sense for you as a brand, because Coachella, for example, has been really popular for many years, but it’s not really doesn’t really fit our brand, right?

 

Lara Schmoisman (34:32)

Mm-hmm.

 

Marina Kirschner (34:32)

So for

 

us, it’s really important to understand we are a lifestyle brand, right? So Miami Open, Tenny, has really made sense for us, right? So it’s really understanding what’s ownable and what makes sense for you and your brand to make sure that the consumer, when they see your brand there, they’re like, oh, that’s great, makes sense, right? It’s not out of place.

 

Lara Schmoisman (34:40)

Absolutely.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah, they can put two and two together and even though it doesn’t make four, but it makes sense.

 

Marina Kirschner (34:58)

Exactly, exactly. You don’t want to be out of place, right? You want to feel comfortable as a brand too. Like if you show up at Coachella, like I wouldn’t even know how to do the activation there, right? So it’s like you have to show up in a way that you feel comfortable. Like if I don’t, I don’t feel comfortable in miniskirt, I’m not going to wear a miniskirt.

 

Lara Schmoisman (35:01)

Yes.

 

Yeah.

 

But when you

 

do an activation, how do you… Because that’s a great experience for the consumer, but then you need to make sure that doing an activation is not enough. Then they need to see you again. An activation is part of a plan.

 

Marina Kirschner (35:27)

Yes, yes. The 360 that we usually talk about in marketing, think is really important and following the consumer through the funnel, I think is really important. So if you understand that your consumer watches tennis and then she’s also interested in traveling to certain place or she buys certain brands or she watches certain TV programs, you you have to make sure that you have a plan to target your consumer where she is and when she is.

 

Lara Schmoisman (35:55)

Absolutely. Do you guys use data from third parties to understand who your consumer?

 

Marina Kirschner (36:00)

Yes.

 

Yes, yes, we do. We use some of the research companies. also commission studies in other countries to find out how is the consumer like in India or Korea. For those type of things, we commission data as well. But we do. We do. It’s very, very important for us. We’re a very data-driven company. We’re small. We’re nimble and agile, but data is really important.

 

Lara Schmoisman (36:26)

What do you think is the biggest challenge nowadays? And let’s not even go to the tariffs that are currently as we are recording this podcast. But what do you think that currently is the biggest challenge for a beauty brand or cosmetic brand in this market, an international market? Because I have a same as you, I believe in a global market. don’t believe, I feel like if someone sees your product in another country and they want it,

 

Why not?

 

Marina Kirschner (36:56)

Exactly, yeah. There are two main challenges that come to mind. I’m gonna start with the unsexy one and then go to one that is a little more interesting. The unsexy one is the regulations. The regulations are just something that, for those listening, the regulations usually on what ingredients you can use or the packaging that you can use, that usually starts in.

 

in Europe, but in California as well. And if you are a global brand and you’re trying to optimize your packaging and formulas, you try to be global, right? But with all of these regulations, it makes it really, hard for you to have global formulas. If you don’t have global formulas, the MOQs are affected, right? The minimum order point is known as the MOQs. So regulatory and all of that is really a big challenge for global brands right now.

 

And I would say global brands are not really, really big because brands like Lother, they’re like so big that they could have their own formulas for different territories. We are a mid-sized company where we want to have global formulas, but the MOQs are going to be hard to meet if we have too many different formulas.

 

Lara Schmoisman (37:59)

Yeah.

 

Absolutely. And what’s a sexy one?

 

Marina Kirschner (38:10)

The sexy one is content. We touch a little bit on that. I think that you have to produce so much content nowadays to be relevant and to adapt to what the consumer is looking for. That is one of the, an opportunity, I wouldn’t call it so much challenge, but is how do you produce enough content that is actually ownable, right? So.

 

Lara Schmoisman (38:34)

Mm-hmm.

 

Marina Kirschner (38:35)

You know if you are a prestige brand your content is usually going to be a little more sophisticated or you know the audience maybe is looking for something different and something that is very authentic. Even though you wanna do you want to be that way is a little harder ride it to produce really quickly and cheap cost so i think that the velocity in which you produce a content.

 

Lara Schmoisman (38:58)

and the cost of

 

content.

 

Marina Kirschner (39:01)

Yes, yes, the cost of content. So it’s, how fast can you produce it? A and B, how do you make sure that is still ownable to you? That is something that represents your brand.

 

Lara Schmoisman (39:11)

Absolutely. those challenges are really valid and I think that they are valid from a small company to a bigger company. I think that the same challenges that everyone is experiencing. So you need to budget for that. That’s the only answer I can give you.

 

Marina Kirschner (39:30)

Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. And sometimes it’s, you do something, you test it and then be agile and nimble to be able to see what works and then go and produce more of that content, you know? So I would say, you know, have the people ready, the content studios, the photographers that you trust, have those people that you can reach out, the influencers, you know, that you trust, that you can reach out to produce content as needed.

 

Lara Schmoisman (39:57)

Absolutely. Yeah. It’s really important. Like I always say, you have a strategy for the year, but I only plan little blocks of time. And I learned this through COVID. I was working way ahead of time and COVID taught me never to do that again. Because you and how social media is working and the trends are changing constantly. You need to be able to jump into those trends.

 

Marina Kirschner (40:22)

Yeah, absolutely. And identify what you think that is going to resonate and jump into those that you think are going to resonate. Some of them may be not as relevant to you. So it’s really important that you’re very thoughtful and strategic at the same time as you’re nimble and agile.

 

Lara Schmoisman (40:31)

Exactly.

 

I have a last question for you, Marina. And I know that I know the answer, but I want people to know it. As a marketer, how much do you use your gut feeling?

 

Marina Kirschner (40:46)

a lot. think that instincts are really important. You know, you see art and the science a little bit, right? And then the instincts that kick in. And it’s just like so important to really you look at the data, but also listen to what the instinct is telling you. What is the gut? What is, know, what is like

 

Lara Schmoisman (40:54)

and

 

Yeah,

 

yeah. Like I say, it’s a combination of your experience, your instinct, your education, the data is you can not put it together, but your stomach is telling you something and it never goes wrong.

 

Marina Kirschner (41:16)

Yeah, and

 

1. And speak up. I find and I tell my teams, if you have a strong feeling about something, just speak up. Get a seat at the table and share that. And it has happened to me in the past where I had a gut and I didn’t feel comfortable. Back when I started my career and I didn’t talk about it and then I regretted. I knew that was wrong. I shouldn’t have approved that. So I think that following your gut and your instincts is really important.

 

Lara Schmoisman (41:44)

Yeah, but sometimes it’s hard when you’re starting your career and mostly for us being women’s immigrants to speak up because we already have everything against us when you’re starting on top of being young.

 

Marina Kirschner (41:56)

Exactly.

 

Exactly. I totally understand that. Yeah, I agree with you.

 

Lara Schmoisman (42:02)

Okay, well Marina, thank you so much for having coffee with me. This was really great.

 

Marina Kirschner (42:07)

Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure talking to you, always.

 

Lara Schmoisman (42:10)

And

 

to you guys, I hope that it was helpful. It was really helpful for me. And I always really love talking to another marketer, but in this case, another friend. So I hope that it was good for you to leave us some messages in the notes of the episode. And I will see you next week with more Coffee No. 5.