Lara Schmosiman (00:11)

Hi everyone, welcome back to coffee number five. Is your coffee ready? is. ⁓ So I’ve been having this conversation for a long, long time and you guys know me. Un popular opinion. I’m not a big fan of influencers who are selling, selling, selling, but I’ve been a big fan of communities. I’m big fan of creating collaborations and really people that…

 

you love your brand and that you want to collaborate with the brand. There might be payment involved or not, doesn’t matter to me, but what I don’t care anymore and I think many of the audience out there, they can read through the lines of someone who is sponsor content, sponsor content, sponsor content, and that’s a tough one. So I wanted to bring you an expert as always in this space. So Henry Barton, thank you so much for being here.

 

today. So I mean, we had this conversation several times as the industry. I mean, today you are at well and you have a very fancy title that I don’t remember now.

 

Henry (01:05)

Thank you for having me.

 

I find it hard to remember sometimes as well in fairness. yeah, as you say, I’m at Jewel. I’m the global head of network ⁓ and yeah, tasked with working with some of the most exciting beauty, fashion, lifestyle brands to, yeah, as you said, like help those brands turn their communities ⁓ of loyal and loving fans and advocates and turn them into their most powerful growth engine.

 

Lara Schmosiman (01:22)

Yeah, well…

 

Henry (01:45)

Essentially. So we build and scale programs that mobilize not just, you know, tens or hundreds of influences, but thousands of passionate customers and creators to drive, not just reach and engagement, but be a real revenue driver for these brands as well. So building programs like.

 

Lara Schmosiman (01:45)

Okay.

 

Henry (02:03)

Charlotte Tilbury’s Magic Beauty Stars and a variety of others to really allow brands to engage through challenges and activations that transcend ⁓ inauthentic influencer posts and relationships.

 

Lara Schmosiman (02:21)

I love that you said that, but let’s talk a little bit about the state of the industry because this, everything started a little while ago, a few years ago with social media and a lot of people became, uh, see it as a business opportunity, which is, I think it’s great. It’s great to be a scraper. It’s great to have, but everyone knows a content creator. So what is a content creator in your eyes?

 

Henry (02:37)

Mm-hmm.

 

anyone.

 

who creates content is my answer. I’m of the belief that you don’t need to be an influencer to have influence. Anyone who’s creating content, regardless of how many followers you have, they’re creating content that resonates with whether it’s 100, whether it’s 200, whether it’s 1,000, whether it’s 10,000, you’re creating content that resonates. So my definition of a content creator is anyone who is bold enough and brave enough to be putting content out there on the big world

 

Lara Schmosiman (02:46)

Okay.

 

Henry (03:14)

wide web ⁓ for all to see like we’re doing right now. Like we are content creators. ⁓ But I think the key thing about what differentiates a content creator from say an influencer is it’s their true authentic self. It’s creating content that is resonant of their truest beliefs, their hobbies, their loves, their…

 

Lara Schmosiman (03:16)

Like we’re doing right now, for example. Yes, we are.

 

Henry (03:40)

you know, what they spend their time, money and energy into. That’s how content is created in its truest form. And I think as, as far as your top question that you asked and just like the state of, state of the industry, I think we are seeing sort of like a bit of a recalibration of influence, you know, fashion in my world, least fashion, beauty and lifestyle brands that thrive in the coming years, I think will be the ones that treat advocacy, not as

 

sort of like a campaign tactic, as like very, very heartbeat of their marketing. ⁓ we see, ⁓ I won’t name names, but if you just need to log onto LinkedIn to see some of the backlash of some, a brand, ⁓ that has created a campaign that might not have resonated as well as they hoped it would, let’s put it that way. ⁓ and I am a true believer in the fact that that has come about as a result of not truly understanding your customer, not truly speaking to your customer and responding to.

 

the content that they want to see built into the program. So I think what we’re going to see is that shift.

 

Lara Schmosiman (04:39)

Let’s break out

 

the industry for a second because I want the audience out there to understand what we talk about content creators, we talk about influencers a little, but there is another things like brand ambassadors, there is like the face of the brand or… So where do you divide it? How do you divide these collaborators with brands?

 

Henry (05:02)

I

 

Sorry, to revisit that question, how do you split between who’s a content creator, who’s an influencer or?

 

Lara Schmosiman (05:09)

Yes,

 

who is a content creator, who’s an influencer, who is a brand ambassador and who is the face of the brand. I mean, they are different or there is any other role that you imagine that there is in this space right now.

 

Henry (05:17)

Yeah.

 

Yeah, of course. It’s a great question. think what we see is that we’ve got this three part divide to how brands view at the moment. You’ve got your influencers, your hundreds upon thousands of followers of fans and followers on social, regularly comes with a blue tick, regularly comes with a manager or an agent that will manage a lot of their work. ⁓

 

Lara Schmosiman (05:47)

and it

 

comes with the price tag.

 

Henry (05:51)

And it comes with a price tag. there was like, if you look back to the early stages of influencer, like a lot of them would have been happy to do stuff in return for product and return for experience in return for, you know, maybe an elevated experience when it comes to PR packaging, et cetera. think then.

 

That’s shifted. We can come back onto that. think the other section is ambassador and loyalty programs. So loyalty is something that’s traditionally measured on spend. ⁓ How many dollars you spend on a particular brand equates to rewards. It equates to maybe discounts, et cetera. that’s loyalty. Pardon me.

 

Lara Schmosiman (06:26)

also known as affiliates.

 

Henry (06:31)

Affiliates, but

 

like I think where, the line slightly blurs on the content creator and affiliate side of things is actually they work very, very well in tandem. So what you have is you’ve got, you’ve got, ⁓ affiliates who are obviously, ⁓ you know, get affiliate revenue from anything that’s shopped through their links. So what we, what we see is that the conversion of that is done far greater when combined with someone who already has that organic love of the brand and product because.

 

⁓ it’s, more believable. There’s more trust, there’s more credibility in the way that they speak about those products. So that conversion from an affiliate standpoint is made infinitely more, more successful and more believable by them already having that existing love. think if someone’s chasing the paycheck, they can that that’s sort of quite transparent and quite. Quite see through when it comes to, when it comes to, ⁓ posting, posting content out in the ether. And I know if I was to talk, ⁓ if

 

was to change the way that I spoke or if I was changed that my hobbies on on social, I know I’d be called out by my friends. ⁓ The thousand people that follow me on Instagram, for example, ⁓ would know that I’m changing to fulfill the brief of someone who might be wanting to access my micro community. yeah, affiliates still powerful regardless of how how big you are ⁓ in terms of follow accounts. And I think it’s something that

 

that can be a real powerful tool when built at scale. ⁓ Because affiliate, you flooding a, to bring it back around to dual too much during this conversation, but when you take, you know, a program built by the likes of ourselves or some of the others in the space, you know, these are built for, this is built for scale. It’s built for tens of thousands of people. ⁓ It’s not built for, you know, ⁓ tens managed in an Excel spreadsheet. So, ⁓

 

Yeah, I think it’s interesting how I would probably caveat with this with saying that I don’t think there’s an industry standard for how it’s segmented. ⁓ And I also don’t think there’s necessarily a…

 

a dedicated team because it like influencer can fall obviously under influencer teams, but it can fall sometimes under PR. can work its way into brand marketing. It can work its way into affiliate. It can work its way into so many different ways. So where, ⁓ and obviously with content creators, with ambassadors, can do the same. we’re seeing sort of like, ⁓ the, the, the shift in where it sits. And I think the last thing I’ll say on this part of the question is the macro economic class.

 

dictates a little bit about where this what what the investment in this area is and where the ⁓

 

interest comes from an internal perspective. when you think when times are good, when money’s cheap, when business is flowing, like that, we’re very happy to pump things in that might be more blue sky thinking more awareness, more sort of, you know, top of funnel activity. But when we find ourselves in what we currently find ourselves, which is flirting with a recession and, and ⁓ falling on a little tougher times financially and economically, it businesses shift that lens to

 

to

 

be more bottom of funnel, how are we driving revenue, how are we driving sales? So that changes that picture and how brands and companies approach the management and the investment in said parts of the, the marketing matrix. So yeah, it’s a fascinating part of the world that I think we’re seeing constant changes and constant.

 

Lara Schmosiman (09:47)

Absolutely.

 

it.

 

We are, and

 

then it came TikTok Shop. And we never, we still don’t know what is going to happen to TikTok Shop in the US. So we see other companies that they are maybe having plan B, is everyone having a plan B? And, and, but TikTok Shop changed the game a little.

 

Henry (10:08)

And then comes TikTok Shop and then comes…

 

Mm-hmm.

 

It did. ⁓ I challenge you on a little. think it changed it lot. you know what, I think shop, it’s still in its infancy, Like it’s, it’s still, it’s still in its infancy. It’s evidently a powerful tool. I mean, you just need to look over to like,

 

Lara Schmosiman (10:32)

I think TikToks change a lot, make it change a lot. TikTok Shop is…

 

Henry (10:47)

China, for example, is a slightly more developed market in terms of social commerce as to like the true power of what it can I think there’s a mentality shift for how we interact with products that maybe the West hasn’t quite got its head around quite yet, but it’s the future, social commerce. And it’s, well, it’s the now actually, but like it’s very much the future. And I think we’ll be seeing, we’ll be seeing iterations of this come up and more.

 

Lara Schmosiman (10:52)

Mm-hmm.

 

Dolly is a…

 

Henry (11:15)

more comfort in the way that we shop across this process. think, you know, there’s a lot of narrative out there about how TikTok shop is ⁓ for a lower price point. ⁓ It’s for things that are bundles.

 

Lara Schmosiman (11:28)

I have to

 

tell you, I love that you’re just speaking what I might well to ask you. That’s okay, but I love it.

 

Henry (11:33)

Sorry, okay, I won’t get ahead myself.

 

Yeah, like I think that’s changing ⁓ and trust in the platform is obviously something that the American government is…

 

Lara Schmosiman (11:42)

Well, it’s a sign that people

 

say that Amazon is only for lower price points.

 

Henry (11:47)

Yeah, and they’re doing quite well, I hear. So yeah, it’s one of those. It’s a mindset shift in our shopping habits. And I think as we become more comfortable with it, it’ll only increase in the amount we spend there, but also the amount ⁓ of variety and differing price points that we see.

 

Lara Schmosiman (11:50)

Yeah.

 

I truly

 

believe that social commerce is the future of the industry. However, I do believe also that most brands are not doing a great job putting it everywhere because everything is integrated right now. And social media became search engine too.

 

Henry (12:15)

Agreed.

 

Lara Schmosiman (12:31)

So like you were saying that they were changing narratives. see a lot of brands that they have different narratives because they have one team doing SEO, another team doing social media. And they are just ranking for the wrong. They have a conflict, internal conflict, I will say.

 

Henry (12:47)

A hundred

 

percent like, and operating in silos is arguably the most dangerous thing that brands can do these days, right? Because there’s not that sort of like combined goal and combined focus. I think it’s made that arguments made even more interesting now with, you know, the, the updates from Instagram and how, you know, we’re to have to start thinking about how we caption our social posts because that directly impacts, ⁓ searchability and discoverability on search engines.

 

Lara Schmosiman (12:53)

Yeah.

 

Absolutely. And

 

Henry (13:16)

which

 

Lara Schmosiman (13:16)

now we have also this week, announcement from Shopify and Chubb GPT that there’s going to be a transaction lesson Chubb GPT like go find these and buy it. And if you don’t put the right keywords and you don’t structure your data for, ⁓ for AI, you’re lost in the game.

 

Henry (13:34)

Exactly.

 

And like, I can’t remember the exact stat and I’m going to kick myself, but there is the percentage that the modern shopper and modern consumer is actually doing product search on chat GPT over at Google. ⁓ And obviously this is becoming more prevalent with younger AI native generations who, you know, are mentally programmed to go there as their first port of research call. it’s ⁓

 

Lara Schmosiman (13:59)

⁓ listen, even my father talks

 

to Chuck E. Beattie all the time.

 

Henry (14:03)

yeah?

 

Big up. I love that. Get on him. That’s excellent. But yeah, it’s definitely something that all brands are going to have to really lean into and put a bit more effort into truly understanding ⁓ difference. I watched a great talk. I’m actually going to quickly name drop him because he was brilliant.

 

Lara Schmosiman (14:07)

Yeah, yeah.

 

So

 

I really something that I’ve been seeing also in brands lately is that there have been in the last few years, was a very strong separation from branding, growth and social. How do you see it? To me, that’s a no-no. Everything needs to be interconnected. But how do you see the future? What’s going to happen with all the integration of AI? Also now can it be replacing influencers?

 

Henry (14:51)

Hmm.

 

Lara Schmosiman (14:51)

You have AI people.

 

Henry (14:53)

I’m not sure how I feel about AI influences just yet. ⁓ They’re bloody convincing. Let’s put it out there. And I think there’s wider image and how we want models to be viewed and how we want like, there’s certain negative impacts of it in the fashion and beauty world specifically maybe that shows a

 

type of body, a type of person, a type of figure, a type of face that we deem to be, you know, I think we can lose a little bit of inclusivity when we come to it. So I think it’s about, I, is what I’m seeing in these early stages, right? Like I’d love to see a more inclusive approach to how we’re using it, I want to answer the original question. think yes, they need to work together. Like they really need to work together. It’s never been more important for everyone to sort of get on.

 

Lara Schmosiman (15:45)

Yeah. I

 

believe that it was Bernard Shaw who said that if you get me actors who use exactly the words that I give them, do what I tell them to do and use intonation and the pauses and everything that I tell them, I guarantee your success.

 

Henry (16:02)

really? Ben sure said that. Okay. You’re full of quotes. I love that.

 

Lara Schmosiman (16:04)

Yeah.

 

And I think that that’s what the AI is bringing to the table, that the director can get exactly what they wanted.

 

Henry (16:15)

Yes, but you shouldn’t, the director’s not the one that is buying the products. You need to be thinking about the humans that are actually buying your products. bringing this back to that, like, is that what your consumer wants to see? Is that going to be the thing that incentivizes purchase? Is that use of AI?

 

Lara Schmosiman (16:21)

No.

 

Of course.

 

Henry (16:34)

the best use of AI in building a, you know, a hundred year brand and something that is going to transcend the trends. Like as if, if it’s, if there’s a long-term strategy to the use and there is a direct.

 

desire from your consumer, I think that’s what we need to need to remember. It’s we’ve got to we’ve got to listen to what our customer wants ⁓ and react accordingly. So I think as long as there is that company wide directive and mission ⁓ and true understanding ⁓ North Star, if you like that phrase, I find it ⁓ business jargony. But ⁓ yeah, as long as there is that

 

Lara Schmosiman (17:01)

Absolutely.

 

Okay.

 

Henry (17:20)

shared common goal for the business that is how do we give the customer and unknown customer what they want, then I see no reason as to why you shouldn’t test, iterate ⁓ and respond accordingly to all of it. But it has to, the departments have to work together in order to make that the most comprehensive and most effective manner.

 

Lara Schmosiman (17:43)

And I think

 

there are two points there. First of all, that creating this perfect AI and everything like the director wanted, it doesn’t come for free. It’s going to be a lot of elements, a lot of programs, a lot of work hours. So at some point also you need to be a business decision. There is a reason to use AI instead of a person. There has to be a reason behind it.

 

Henry (17:53)

No.

 

Yeah, of course. And it should be the same with every business decision, right? You do the research, you get the data, you prove the concept, and you can then action. think where AI is helpful is enabling speed ⁓ and enabling ⁓ the operational elements of getting from research to delivery even quicker. ⁓

 

I mean, yeah, I need to do more with AI myself. So I don’t feel like I’m the best person. I’m a print media kind of guy. I’m a, you know, out of home billboard kind of guy. I am a social guy ⁓ in terms of the belief in that in its true authentic fashion can be an absolute game changer and differentiator. ⁓ I need to do more research into how AI can…

 

Lara Schmosiman (19:03)

I love what you mentioned

 

before about the brands forgetting many times about who is their consumer. And I feel like a lot of brands come with a pretty brand book and they forget to do the research and getting to know that consumer and what they make them take.

 

Henry (19:20)

Like, it’s, they’re the people who are buying our products. They’re the people who are, you know, telling their friends about those products. I think the better, the more elevated experience is the true winner of today’s world. ⁓ And so if, another little catchphrase I’ll throw out there is, I’m a big believer of your…

 

next best customer is your current best customers best friend. ⁓ And so if we’re looking at our current best customers, ⁓ what are they asking for? What are they responding to the most? What are they ⁓ clamoring for? And in terms of maybe it’s a campaign, maybe it’s product development, maybe it’s, you know, partnership, like where else are they hanging out that you do the digging on that? Because those are the ones that

 

Lara Schmosiman (19:47)

Yep.

 

Henry (20:13)

will give you the most authentic and true feedback because they are the ones already invested in your business. ⁓ So they can provide the direction that, or I say direction, they could provide guidance on what might be a ⁓ rational next step to take ⁓ in order to either further push them down that advocacy funnel and get them doing more for you or spreading the word ⁓ and helping you on that customer acquisition journey or just providing that feedback.

 

that is one of our company values that jewel is feedback is a gift. And I think it’s something that a lot of brands forget that, you know, when crowdsourcing that feedback from your most loving and loyal fans, these are the ones who want to see you succeed. So that feedback is going to be with your best interest at heart. ⁓

 

Lara Schmosiman (21:02)

Yeah, and

 

I think this wonderful world of the internet gave us also another opportunity, which is the social proof. And I think the social proof, that’s ratings.

 

Henry (21:12)

Which is what’s good. Yes, absolutely.

 

Lara Schmosiman (21:17)

Reviews from people are so important and you have to listen what people say because it’s not only that the other consumers are going to read to it, you can learn a lot. And if you’re really in between lines, you can also learn what’s the next product that they’re looking for.

 

Henry (21:22)

Yeah, 100%.

 

for sure.

 

Yeah, a hundred percent. And it’s not even, it’s not even just in the reviews, right? Like it’s in the content that they’re creating that lives in your tagged posts section of your brand Instagram. It’s in, I mean, the comments section is obviously getting a lot of, ⁓ it’s getting a lot of love recently because that’s where, that’s where the action happens. You know, you just see all brands like really digging into comments on Instagram and other platforms. know, actually listening to that, responding to it, engaging with it is a surefire way.

 

Lara Schmosiman (21:47)

Yeah.

 

Yes.

 

Henry (22:04)

of not only understanding what sentiment is towards your business, but sentiment to culture, sentiment to their everyday lives. And I think ⁓ the more you can respond, listen to that and respond to that, you can embed yourself in culture, not chase every trend that’s going on. We saw the astronomer CEO and all the brands jumping on that Coldplay scandal, but like…

 

Lara Schmosiman (22:29)

you

 

Henry (22:30)

If the trend makes sense, if the cultural moment makes sense and is aligned with your brand, then ⁓ you bet your bottom dollar that you’ll find it in your comments section from those people who are engaging with your post.

 

Lara Schmosiman (22:43)

Absolutely. And so where do you think that the industry is going? What’s next for the collaborations, ambassadors, influencers, creators world?

 

Henry (22:53)

Yeah, I’m going to start with a very biased one, which is that advocacy is the new influence. ⁓ I think we’re seeing a move from influences with reach to advocates with resonance ⁓ is what I’d say. So the average consumer doesn’t want to hear from a person with

 

a million followers that are, you know, plugging multiple products week in, week out. And actually what they’re looking for is that the people that they trust actually the Amica beauty, ⁓ CEO Chelsea Riggs recently came out in a business of beauty article and said that stylists are the new influences for, for Amica. You know, people who are.

 

Lara Schmosiman (23:33)

Hmm.

 

Henry (23:36)

every day talking about hair, every day ⁓ dealing with different products. And the stylists that are recommending your products are the ones that understand not only from a sort of outcome perspective of what those products are doing, but from an integrity perspective of the ingredients, from a desired outcome of absolutely every element of the product.

 

Lara Schmosiman (24:01)

and consumer feedback

 

too.

 

Henry (24:02)

consumer feedback, but yeah, from people who might don’t traditionally fit the mold of influencer, but have trust and credibility and market. And I think this has made increasingly important with the meritocratic nature of algorithms these days, right? Like it’s no longer, I think follow account is, it’s not irrelevant. I wouldn’t go as far as saying irrelevant, but.

 

With the meritocratic nature of the algorithms on social these days, good content is rewarded, not just well-followed individuals and accounts. So ⁓ more so than ever, we’re seeing that rise of true people that are creating trustworthy, education-led content, micro-creators that are passionate, tight-knit peer groups that are…

 

providing real credibility and ultimately real ROI for brands these days. So that’s my slightly biased one. think ⁓ what we’ll also see is a rise of owned communities. So brands are realizing that ⁓ rented attention is costly and unstable. ⁓ So I think what we’ll see is a big focus on building owned community spaces, whether that’s ambassador programs, whether that’s

 

Lara Schmosiman (25:09)

Mm-hmm.

 

Henry (25:16)

in real life opportunities to gather. know, we’re seeing the rising trend of cafes built into stores and, you know, coach do an incredible job at building these community spaces within new retail facilities and their stores for brand, like customers to engage with their communities.

 

Lara Schmosiman (25:33)

And also.

 

Indeed, this is

 

what I’ve been seeing a lot of experiences that people can get to touch. It’s all about experience.

 

Henry (25:45)

Yeah, absolutely. Combining the combination of digital and the in real life world is important to this owned community piece because it’s, especially with some products, your brands will map out how many touch points are needed to incentivize purchase. Like the more touch points that you can have cross, cross medium and multi-medium will just increase.

 

Lara Schmosiman (26:10)

Homemade channel. ⁓

 

Henry (26:13)

Pardon me, omni-channel, there we go, that’s the word.

 

End of my day, as I said, I don’t have a coffee, I’ve got water, so maybe I should, maybe we should name this one.

 

Lara Schmosiman (26:21)

Well, that

 

brings me to my next question and it’s the last question of today. How do you drink your coffee?

 

Henry (26:25)

Sure. ⁓

 

Depends what time of the day. ⁓ I rather embarrassingly started my day with a vanilla latte this morning. ⁓ So ⁓ yeah, don’t judge me on that one. But usually I am just a flat white, sugar.

 

Lara Schmosiman (26:36)

Right?

 

Very good. Well, thank you so much for being here with us today. And to you guys, I will see you next week with more Coffee Number Five.